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Well, welcome to this very special event
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as part of this year's Social Work Week.
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Today
we're going to be talking about racism,
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but I hope also more significantly
about anti-racism
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and the part we can all play in
creating an anti-racist Wales.
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My name is David Pritchard.
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I'm the director of regulation at Social
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Care Wales, the national body
that works to support the workforce
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and to support social care
and social work in Wales.
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This year's theme for Social Work Week,
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about professional identity.
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It's about well-being
and it's about relationships.
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So I'm really delighted to be joined
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by two very special guests today.
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Firstly,
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Hanan Issa,
who is the national poet of Wales
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but has a history of working
in social care and social work.
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And Jade Forbes, who is a social worker,
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and has been a vocal,
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a proponent of anti-racism
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in our society for the last few years.
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So we're going to have just a conversation
about some of the key themes,
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about creating an anti-racist Wales.
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And hopefully we can gain some insight
into what
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it's been like to live in our country
over the past few years,
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but also an insight
into where we can go to make life better,
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and to move towards the anti-racism,
anti-racist
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Wales that we 're all,
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ambitious for.
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Great. Well, thank you both for joining.
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Fantastic to have you.
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I'm gonna start with you, Hanan.
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You are the national poet of Wales.
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You've, published poetry and essays,
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on identity.
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'My Body Can House Two Hearts' is the book
that I'm most familiar with,
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and I genuinely urge people
to look out for that because it really,
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is insightful.
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I wondered what is your experience
of racism in Wales?
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You know,
what has it been like for you growing up
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and living in Wales with dual heritage?
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Yeah.
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It's been an interesting journey.
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So I grew up in Penarth, which
is a small town right next to Cardiff.
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And growing up there in the 90s,
it wasn't particularly diverse.
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It would be like the local cornershop or,
you know, one
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or two people
that you could name or people of color.
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And so there were things
that are a part of my childhood.
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So they would be like racial slurs used,
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that I didn't actually know were
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racial slurs.
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And, you know,
particularly things like the 'p' word,
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that would be bandied about and my mum
had to say, "Well, you can't say that."
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"That's, that's that's a bad word."
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"That's a racist word", you know?
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And so, you know, that was kind of like
the, the beginning of it.
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And I had quite a formative
experience at about eight or nine,
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where I was sort of made to confront
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with the fact that I wasn't white
because up until this point,
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race didn't really come into
my understanding of the world.
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But I we were playing in it.
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We used to live next to a farmer's field,
and me and this
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boy had an argument
that turned into a fist fight.
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And I won, and he wasn't happy.
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So he went home crying to his mum.
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His mum came and actually confronted me
and told me to keep my filthy black
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hands off him.
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And of course, I'm not Black.
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But it really sort of
forced me to confront the idea
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that I wasn't White and other people
didn't perceive me in that way.
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And so my journey of kind of understanding
what racism,
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what race, what identity
and belonging means stemmed from there.
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And yeah, I mean, I'm
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it's unfortunate to say that that's
not been my only experience of racism.
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I've had experiences
in a professional capacity.
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I've had experiences
and just walking down the street.
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But I think that each of those experiences
has taught me
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something a little bit more about myself
and about what I can manage
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and what I can do to overcome
and actually support other people who
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who have these experiences.
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I mean, it's very difficult
for someone who isn't from,
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Black, Asian or minority
ethnic background to really understand
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those experiences.
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I also find it very difficult.
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You've worked in social care
and social work.
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Hanan and Jade, you currently do.
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You do, some really important
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work in that sector, in mental health
and in emergency call outs.
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You've made.
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You've described racism in social care
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and social work as exhausting.
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Do you want to tell us a little about
what's behind that kind of description?
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I think exhaustion, frustration,
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frustrating.
I think you go for social work
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training, you challenge your own,
bias and understand.
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you've lived a life
where you experience racism.
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You come into a profession where,
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generally we as social workers
are there to challenge
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oppression and discrimination.
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But actually coming into a profession
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and realising
that not everyone has the right values.
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And then you're still experiencing it
on a day to day basis.
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In the workplace, by colleagues,
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by colleagues
within different organisations.
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It's exhausting
because when we have to challenge it
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or we have to raise something, often
we then the person has to educate
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the person around,
you know, their, lack of understanding.
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And often in a position
then where we're having to comfort someone
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because they end up upset
or offended that they've offended you.
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It's quite an unusual position.
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So where we're actually, you know,
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trying to vent frustration,
we end up then going into a rescue mode
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because someone ends up
in an a victim state.
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So it is massively exhausting.
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It's also exhausting having to raise it
on an official level as well, because,
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even probably up until today,
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there's not really an infrastructure
within policies to really protect people.
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An example of that is I'm currently,
last week, experienced a microaggression
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and, going through another,
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procedure where I'm having to raise it.
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You know, I understand that,
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it's always best to try and mediate,
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first.
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And that's what I'm, you know,
that's my intention at the moment.
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But the people I've raised it with
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are probably panicking because they've got
no understanding of it.
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And I it's kind of, I'm
being stonewalled a little bit
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at the moment, so I'm not hearing anything
back, you know.
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So again, it's time that is precious, that I
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then have to take out to then address
something because if it's happening to me,
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you know, I'm in a management position.
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If it's happening to me,
then it's definitely happening to,
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you know, social workers, students
and more importantly,
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the people that we
we support in the community.
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I hear you kind of nodding agreement,
essentially
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this idea
that not only do you receive those,
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microaggressions,
but you are almost required
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to then handle and deal
and respond to them.
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This isn't part of your experience
as well, Hanan.
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Yeah.
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It's still hard to hear that
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someone who is doing all the incredible
things that you're doing.
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I mean, to quote Toni Morrison,
she says that racism is a distraction.
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It distracts us from the work.
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And that is so true.
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And that's exactly what I'm hearing.
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You know, there are so many,
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much more worthy things
you could be doing with your time.
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And I worry that so much of your energy
is getting taken up with having to
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not only what you said, experience
and endure these things,
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but then having to coddle
the people that have done it.
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But I think that for me,
one of the things that is very important
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is to start becoming comfortable
with the discomfort.
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You know,
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it is uncomfortable
to think that we've made a mistake.
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We've said something wrong.
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We've internalised a bias
and then acted upon it.
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But something that we lose in childhood
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is that ability to admit we don't know.
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You know, as children,
we're always asking why, what, where?
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And I don't know why we lose that.
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I don't know why we make a decision
that at some point in our life
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we have to know everything
because we really don't,
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you know, like, if you took an evening
class in Renaissance art
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and you went once a week
on a Friday for an hour,
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you would not say, I'm
an expert on Renaissance art.
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You'd be like, gosh, there's
so much more for me to learn.
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And that's just the case
with with everything.
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And so, yeah, for me, it's like you said
about, you know, social care is about
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supporting people
and addressing oppression.
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And part of that
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really should be getting comfortable
with the discomfort of asking.
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Tell tell us a little bit
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more about, about those experiences,
perhaps for you, Jade.
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And, and one thing I'm quite interested in
is you talk about
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the response of people
who are challenged and,
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and that you almost describe
a defensive wall going up
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rather than an openness
to learn as Hanan has said.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So, quite common ones,
I think I find and I'm not sure, you know,
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if you experience the same,
but there's definitely a glass ceiling.
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So, I've had to and I've said this before
on, you know, other occasions
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I've had to work harder and I've had to
shine brighter to get where I am, you know?
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So if I think about the training,
the qualifications
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that I've got, the ongoing training
and qualifications that I continue to do,
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you know, even now I'm
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doing another post-grad and another,
you know, specialist, bit of training.
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I want to continue to learn
and be the best I can.
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But I'm very much aware
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that I have to be almost,
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I can't always ...
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You need to be excellent.
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Yeah, yeah,
because you can't coast on being mediocre.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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And I don't know whether it's.
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And this is another thing, isn't it?
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Because often we can then,
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question our own kind of thoughts
and feelings around it.
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Am I overthinking this?
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Is this, you know,
and that's another thing that, you know,
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you know, people of color
and other ethnic,
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you know, backgrounds have to constantly
have to deal with on a day to day basis.
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So when we're constantly dealing with that,
and knowing that there are these,
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invisible to other people,
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you know, restrictions,
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when we, then, you know,
using our professional power
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in ways in which to, reduce oppression
and then,
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enable people to access services.
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You then get called things
like aggressive,
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passive aggressive, intimidating,
you know.
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Those type of things for me,
when you raise that, that type of language
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for me is a microaggression
because I'm not an 'angry Black woman'.
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But that use of language is almost used
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to silence you in a way,
which is, you're not allowed to do this.
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You know, even as a manager, you know?
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So wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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You know, you're not allowed to do that.
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And yeah,,
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yeah, it's one of those exhausting things
because you then having to,
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you know, even at a management level,
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having to then
justify your use of professional power.
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I think growing up and experiencing things
that weren't overtly racist,
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there was nothing that you could
easily articulate,
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but you felt that there was something
harmful.
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You felt that there was something wrong
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in what was being said
or what you experienced.
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And I feel like we're so lucky now
to have vocabulary to express ourselves
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in this way and to say, yeah, okay,
it wasn't overt racism.
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That's, you know, to me,
that's what microaggression is.
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It's that sort of gray area
where there's nothing tangibly racist.
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But then if you kind of broke it down,
you'd see that there was an assumption
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made a stereotype, a harmful intention
behind a phrase or an action.
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And so, yeah, I think that, you know,
and as it's famously been explained that,
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you know, a microaggression,
you experience one and perhaps it's fine,
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like a mosquito bite.
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But if you experience 20 in a row
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that can impact your day, that can impact
the way that you approach other people.
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And so, yeah, it is really important
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for people to be mindful of that.
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So, I can quote statistics
about some of these things.
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So we do a survey of people who work in
social care, every year.
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They show that people from a Black,
Asian and minority ethnic group
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are much more likely to report having
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faced discrimination in their work.
245
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And interestingly, Jade,
we look at our statistics and
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in terms of managers
and in terms of people who work in
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adult care, for example,
you're five times more likely
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if you're White
to be a manager than you are if you are,
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in relation to the people who are workers.
250
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,400
So we see a huge disparity
between the representation of people
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from minoritised groups at that level
compared to managerial level.
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I suppose that's not a surprise to you,
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from what you've said.
Of course, we've started to, in Wales,
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through the government
and through the support of people from,
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Black, Asian and minority
ethnic groups to develop some plans
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and some ideas about tackling racism.
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And the Anti-Racist Wales
Action Plan is at the heart of that.
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I wondered if you had any reflections
on that wider attempt
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to change the narrative in our society
in Wales?
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Yeah, I guess
261
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words are important to me.
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You would hope, as someone
who makes a living from writing them.
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And so anti, anti-racism,
264
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you know, when we look at the prefix anti
and how we use it.
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So you can say anti-climactic which means
the opposite something climactic.
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So basically the complete
total opposite of it
267
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all we say antibacterial which is like
preventing the spread of bacteria.
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00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,280
And to me that sums up what anti-racism
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looks like because in that phrase,
anti it's proactive.
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You can't be passively anti anything.
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If you're voicing or saying
that you're opposed to something,
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there's
an action that goes along with that.
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So you know for me being anti-racist
it is about strongly opposing
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and preventing the spread of racism.
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And you know,
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I've looked at the anti Anti-Racism
Wales Action Plan and you know, like
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00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,080
I couldn't believe some of the stats
it was saying that within social care,
278
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the number of people from a Black
heritage, it's risen to almost 50 per cent.
279
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,320
I think it was 45, 46 per cent of people
working in social care
280
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,160
who are of a Black heritage experience
some kind of racism.
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And you think it's 2025.
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That number should be reducing,
not increasing.
283
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,640
But then when you see on a wider scale,
on a global scale,
284
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,840
influential people
making fascist gestures,
285
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,360
what do you expect?
286
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,400
Jade, I,
287
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,880
look, I'm
288
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a little older than either of you two.
289
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,960
But throughout my life, I've,
290
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I've been in an environment
where people have talked about equality,
291
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:52,440
and that's the goal.
292
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,080
And, you know, I'm going back to the Race
Relations Act of the 1970s.
293
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:01,640
As a society, we've we've
all kind of agreed that racism is bad.
294
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,960
So why are we in a stage now
that that equality needs to be changed into
295
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,960
something that's a bit more dynamic
and anti.
296
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,320
I think they just need something
that's just a bit more tangible.
297
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:16,920
I have
298
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,920
had conversations with the likes
of Gaynor Legall
299
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,800
who was a social worker.
300
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,920
And she said, we're in the same position.
301
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,960
Nothing's changed.
302
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,200
She continues to fight the fight.
303
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,800
I think the difficulty is
304
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,720
that there is a narrative that there's
no racism.
305
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,960
People who are not experiencing
and having lived
306
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,200
and experienced are not identifying
that there is a problem.
307
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,240
And I think that's where,
308
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,440
we're encountering that the majority
of the difficulty throughout society,
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00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,640
and social media,
310
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,960
the news, the narrative on the news and,
you know, political agendas
311
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:02,720
and so forth change,
I think that it exacerbates the
312
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,040
talk around racism and then,
313
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,560
a protection of,
314
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,440
what some people view as a British state
315
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,760
or a Welsh kind of,
you know, so, and I think that
316
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,960
historically,
317
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,920
that the has
318
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,440
been, and people
perceive people of difference as a threat.
319
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:27,240
Yeah.
320
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,760
You know, and I think that we're
probably being pushed more
321
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,720
or definitely into tribal
ways of thinking, you know,
322
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,320
and I think it's massively important
323
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,320
that we lead from the top down,
324
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,880
you know, in regards
to, you know, the organisations,
325
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,480
the structures
within society to be anti-racist
326
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,000
because actually it's
about the use of the words.
327
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,360
It's about the actions then
and then the implications.
328
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,440
And you know, that it has on individuals
that are accessing
329
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,440
or even working within services.
330
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:04,800
Yeah.
331
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,880
I'm interested in the word difference you
used there,
332
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,880
because we are different,
all of us in, in different ways.
333
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,760
And, you know, I think about what
you've written about in your poetry,
334
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,320
about identity and you know that
perhaps it isn't one thing.
335
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,400
There's lots of things
that contribute to that.
336
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,360
There's this idea of cultural competency
that's come around.
337
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,440
The idea I think that we have,
338
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,400
we have different backgrounds
and different contexts that we live in.
339
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,480
And to understand
that, it's really important.
340
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,440
So it's not about we're all the same.
341
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,880
It's all we all have different aspects
that are rich and wonderful.
342
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,640
Does that make sense to you, Hanan?
343
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,840
And particularly given your, poetry
and your work?
344
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,920
Yeah, I guess, in instances
345
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,920
like that, I always ask myself,
what would Miriam Margolyes do?
346
00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,960
You know, she's somebody who is, you know,
because I think there's this fallacy
347
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,520
that you reach a certain age
and then you can no longer learn,
348
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,560
you can no longer ask questions,
and yet she's somebody who has
349
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,400
she, you know, 80s now.
350
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,520
But I mean, at least late 70s.
351
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520
And yet she's still phenomenally curious.
352
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,520
You know, she goes around the world
encountering people who live completely
353
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,240
different lives to her
and just asks questions.
354
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,560
But then also, she's not afraid to say,
yeah, what I said ten years ago was wrong.
355
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,840
I've learned from there.
356
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,920
And to me, it's as simple as that
as, you know,
357
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,800
seeing difference as something scary.
358
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,040
Yes, we know that that's the truth.
359
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,440
But it's so reductive to try and counter
that by saying we're all one,
360
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,520
we're all the same because we're not.
I think, a much more
361
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,360
tangible way that we can counter
that is, is shifting
362
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,760
our narrative towards
seeing difference with curiosity
363
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,640
and just going back
to the asking questions.
364
00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,360
Yeah, that's really interesting.
365
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:03,280
And, you know,
you're currently practicing in social work
366
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,280
and leading a team of social workers.
367
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,880
You know, that, look, I,
368
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,280
I have this kind of naive idea
that everyone in social care is lovely and
369
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,840
goody goody, and all they care about is,
you know, a wonderful world of the future.
370
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,240
But clearly, you know, there are real
challenges and problems in social work.
371
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,560
And social work is a place where you have
to ask questions, don't you?
372
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,840
And, I suppose in that context,
373
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,680
social workers shouldn't
be afraid to ask those questions.
374
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,200
No, no, I think professional curiosity
should be at the top of everyone's agenda.
375
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,160
And I think as social workers, where
376
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,560
I often talk about,
you know, as being in a position
377
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,920
of speaking to people at their most
vulnerable points of their lives.
378
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,800
And actually being able
to have the most difficult conversations.
379
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,960
And people want you to ask those questions
because sometimes
380
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,440
they've not got it in them
to be expressing it freely.
381
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,680
So, a doctor will ask
382
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,680
really personal questions
about physical health matters,
383
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,040
and they're not afraid to ask
because actually that's their,
384
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,000
you know, profession.
385
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,000
That's what they need to know.
386
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,000
So I think it's the same for us as well.
387
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,360
And we're working with
388
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,440
so many different people
and we can't make assumptions.
389
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:28,680
I say that Wayne Reid who does
lots of anti-racism work for BASW
390
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,080
as well, describes that
people are not one homogenous group.
391
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,160
So you know, you see a group of Jamaicans,
they're not one homogenous,
392
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,320
everyone within
that group will have some difference.
393
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,000
You know, an example of
that is my grandparents from Jamaica
394
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,320
were Jehovah's Witness Jamaicans.
395
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,120
People think 'they have Kingdom Halls
in Jamaica?'
396
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:51,800
Because there would be the assumption
397
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,400
that maybe, the JW didn't reach Jamaica.
398
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,440
But, you know,
399
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,400
I think there's all of those assumptions
and I think we do need to ask
400
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,320
those questions.
401
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,440
And it gets I think that
we get the best out of individuals
402
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,440
that when they
when they feel heard and understood,
403
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,840
because we do have
so much power in social work.
404
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,400
It's how we use that appropriately.
405
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,640
And being able to use that appropriately
is having a full understanding
406
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:18,960
of the individuals we work with.
407
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:20,880
Absolutely.
408
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,680
And I'm thinking
about the people
409
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,600
who will be watching this, often,
probably mostly social workers.
410
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,680
And there will be people
411
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,320
who have been victims of racism,
who are watching this.
412
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,680
There will also be people
who've been observers of racism,
413
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,680
whether they've challenged
or not challenged that.
414
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,400
And I am sure
there will be perpetrators as well
415
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,880
who will be watching this
and perhaps reflecting.
416
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,240
What advice would
you give to people who are listening
417
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,640
or watching this
about what they could do to help
418
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,880
build an anti-racist Wales, an anti-racist
419
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,840
social work, an anti-racist, team?
420
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,320
And, you know, for them themselves
to become anti-racist.
421
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,280
Do you have any particular advice,
that they might
422
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,280
want to take? Hanan?
423
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,080
I guess
424
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,240
care is an active verb, right?
425
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,720
Okay. And so in order to care
426
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,520
for the people that surround
us in the place that we live,
427
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,920
it requires an action.
428
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,120
Just as
to be anti-racism requires an action.
429
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:40,640
And it sounds terribly simple,
but it's about bringing it
430
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,000
back to self-reflection and thinking,
how would I want to be treated?
431
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,720
You know, as as you've said,
you're meeting people usually at their most
432
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:49,800
vulnerable.
433
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,840
And if it's not necessarily a service
user, a client, it's
434
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,160
you're working with colleagues
who are under incredible stress.
435
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,840
And yes, you know, we all cut corners.
436
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,200
We all make snap decisions
and snap assumptions in those spaces.
437
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,440
But then it is about taking that time
of self-reflection and thinking.
438
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,360
Hang on.
439
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:08,440
Like checking yourself.
440
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,960
Have I made an assumption here?
441
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080
You just made the point about,
you know, Jamaican people.
442
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,080
And it's like, always makes me think of,
this great author, Malorie Blackman.
443
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,040
She wrote this incredible
book, Naughts and Crosses,
444
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,080
and she was
writing about a Jamaican family eating dinner,
445
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,640
and they were eating spaghetti.
446
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:26,520
and the feedback
447
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,600
that she got from the editor was,
well, wouldn't they be eating rice and peas?
448
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,880
You know, and it's like,
if you're the person asking that question,
449
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,320
just take a moment to be like,
oh, am I making an assumption here?
450
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,160
You know, would I like it
if the tables were turned
451
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,040
and people will make an assumption
that I'm just eating beans on toast or,
452
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,280
you know, whatever,
whatever the stereotype is.
453
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,920
So, yeah, I think it just it comes back
to taking that time to think,
454
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,080
how would I want to be treated
in this situation?
455
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,720
And you lead that social work team
you want to be, don't you?
456
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,720
An anti-racist social work team?
457
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,200
What are the kind of things
that you think are
458
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,000
the characteristics of an anti-racist team
working in that way?
459
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,920
I think I would use, and I've spoken before
about a fitness, about everything that we do
460
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,920
and thinking of it
in a kind of a way of fitness.
461
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,720
And if we engage in trying to ask
questions,
462
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,440
you know, it needs to be
not just tokenism as well, because, well,
463
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,120
I don't think we want
which happens is
464
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,960
there's a big wave of people going,
oh, yes,
465
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,800
I'm actively engaged in this and,
we're participants and so forth.
466
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,160
And then it kind of it dwindles you know,
467
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,560
and it's almost like an exercise
fad isn't it.
468
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,000
So you exercise for a month, you think
you're fit and then you don't.
469
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,920
So I think that we need to be doing things
every day.
470
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,680
We need to look a bit wider than
ourselves, and we need to look at society.
471
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,360
And I think when and it doesn't just mean,
you know, when I'm working with someone
472
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,720
that I ask questions, in my day
to day, I'll ask questions.
473
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,320
I don't want to ever want
to make an assumption.
474
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,320
And I think that adds
to the richness of conversation as well.
475
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,840
And also character building.
476
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,440
So I just think that for us to maintain
what I would say around
477
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,120
that kind of fitness, around anti-racism,
we need to be doing stuff every day.
478
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,760
We need to be asking questions.
479
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,320
We need to be not just of,
480
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,520
like I said, people we we're working with
about wider people in society, friends
481
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,400
that maybe you've never asked
questions about, you know,
482
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,520
and then you see
a completely different side to them.
483
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,800
Just think it opens up our lens massively.
484
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:36,000
That's such a good analogy about fitness,
because I think you said before, like,
485
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,120
our brains are muscle.
486
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:37,600
Absolutely.
487
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,760
So, you know, if you
488
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,480
if you want to maintain that curiosity,
that understanding of anti-racism,
489
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,600
you need to keep
on, not just do one course.
490
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,560
And then I'm anti-racist. I got a badge.
491
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,160
I got a card.
492
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,600
I, I noted the word earlier coddled
you used, Hanan.
493
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,760
I hate the idea
that I might end up being coddled.
494
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,240
I need to reflect myself
and take ownership of what I do.
495
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,480
And if I am challenged,
perhaps be reflective
496
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,440
and learn from it rather than be defensive
and concerned by that.
497
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,720
See it as an opportunity
to learn and get better.
498
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Okay. Thank you.
499
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,800
And well, I've been a little bit cheeky,
actually, and I've taken the advantage
500
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,880
of having the National Poet of Wales
in this conversation,
501
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,760
and I've asked Hanan if she wouldn't
mind sharing some of her poetry with us.
502
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,800
So I'm sure you'll be delighted
that we're going to close this session
503
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,680
with a little bit
of verse from Hanan.
504
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,160
My body can house two hearts,
505
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,760
we say 'qalbayn' for 'two hearts'.
506
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,320
Pumping parts through crimson sea.
507
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,440
Tied to lands history split.
508
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,040
I've tried to fit uneasily.
509
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,080
A blazing of blood combined.
510
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,120
Obsess, rewind, frustrate me.
Say between two stools I fall,
511
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,920
those boundary walls formed early.
512
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,920
But my body is enough.
513
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,680
gently tough, stretched agony.
Growing a love embracing,
514
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,360
rejecting patriarchy.
515
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160
No need to shame my peers
or let my fears rat-race me.
516
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,160
Two hearts my body can hold,
517
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,800
so I mould my legacy: to make space enough
for all,
518
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,680
standing tall I rise,
519
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,360
breathe free.
Two hearts a strength none can take;
520
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,320
love's a lake and the world is thirsty.
521
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Well, that was special.
522
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,080
And thank you very much to Hanan.
523
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:48,600
And thank you to Hanan and to Jade
for joining us for this conversation.
524
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,040
I've learned a lot, and I hope my fitness
525
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,000
has been renewed today,
but I recognise I'm
526
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,320
going to have to continue to work at this
if I'm going to meet my ambitions.
527
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,520
And I think social care's ambitions
528
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,520
to develop
an anti-racist society here in Wales.
529
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Thank you for listening
and joining us for this conversation.
530
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,440
Please look at the other activities
in Social Work Week.
531
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,640
There's a whole range of activities that
are really worthwhile having a look for.
532
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,680
And please,
533
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,840
if you do, come into conversation
with people,
534
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,960
share with them what you've learned
today and indeed share with them
535
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,280
the link that will be available
to this conversation, on the website.
536
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Thank you all. Good bye.